Indiana and Florida: A Contrast in Basketball Program Status

by Bert Beiswanger
UnknowngatorsThis past week has churned up some contrasting thoughts on two college basketball programs I’ve followed closely for years, Florida and Indiana.

Florida is playing tonight for a chance to make its fourth straight Elite Eight appearance (and sixth in nine years), and Gators coach Billy Donovan is attempting to coach in his fourth Final Four. Indiana is struggling to defend its position as an elite program.

A couple of decades ago, you would have laughed at that contrast. It’s no joke.

Following a season in which Indiana missed out on post-season play, the off-season is off to a shaky start with numerous defections/transfers. I’ve heard some IU fans say that none of these players will be missed. In fact, I’ve heard a convenient excuse for every player that has left the program. Despite the reasons why, level-headed fans can’t be thrilled with the position the program is in.

When you start adding up the losses, including those of Luke Fischer earlier this year and Remy Abel, Matt Roth and Maurice Creek last year, it makes it pretty hard to build a consistently good program. It takes more than star players to build a program. It takes experienced role guys who buy in.

Things happen and kids leave for all kinds of reasons, I get that. But the fact of the matter is Indiana has eight or nine players right now  for 2014-15 season (I’ve lost count) and not much experience.

To have a consistently solid program, you  need your share of three and four year guys, be it an Abel, Etherington or whomever. Right now, IU doesn’t have enough of those program guys. Either guys are being politely told they have no future with IU, they aren’t compelled to stay or they have work ethic/character flaws. Whatever the reasons, there are too many of them all at once.

You can’t have the turnover IU has had and have consistent success. Sure, you can have one-and-done guys, two-and-done guys. But you mix that in with all of the other turnover and you have problems.

IU isn’t short-handed right now just because of a one-and-done like Noah Vonleh. It’s short-handed for a slew of reasons.

When Remy Abel left, I thought that was a problem. Why?  Because some kids take time to develop and you need your share of experienced three- and four year players to develop. I thought Indiana would definitely need the experience this year. But the reaction by many was no big deal, he wasn’t that good, he can be replaced. Maybe so, but you don’t know what the kid could have done three and four years into the program. I simply use Abel as an example, not a means to dissect the basketball virtues of Remy Abel.

The contrasting part of all of this…

Casey Prather of Florida averaged two points per game his sophomore year. He averaged six his junior year. This year, he’s the leading scorer on the #1 ranked team in the country. It took him time to figure out what kind of player he really was.

Will Yeguete doesn’t score much for Florida, but he’s a four year glue guy. The Gators couldn’t win consistently without him.

Joakim Noah, Al Horford, Patric Young…they are all guys who could’ve left sooner than they did (Young being a senior this year). But they didn’t because they loved playing for Donovan and Florida.

The best point guard in the country, Scottie Wilbekin, did a 180 in maturity and leadership. He was told by Donovan before this season to follow a strict set of guidelines and move in with his parents (Gainesville residents) or he’d have to transfer.  Wilbekin did the former and now he’s one of the best leaders Donovan has ever had.

Donovan also had one-and-done Bradley Beal help carry Florida to the Elite Eight in 2012. Beal left for the pros and Florida went right back to the Elite Eight in 2013. The beat goes on at Florida.

Having followed both programs closely over the years, I couldn’t help but compare the two. They’ve both faced similar circumstances – players who can leave early, players with maturity issues, players who are under-achieving. The difference, though, is the end result. Forgive me if I don’t embrace excuses from Hoosiers fans. They are just that, excuses.

Indiana can live at the top of college basketball again, but there’s a  lot of work to do to get there.

Follow on Twitter @BertBeis

 

20 thoughts on “Indiana and Florida: A Contrast in Basketball Program Status

  1. Steve C

    You sound just like my friend who has been saying the same stuff to me all year…That said, I do agree with you about the status of the Florida program/Donovan and IU is back to more question marks.

    Reply
  2. Jeff Gregory

    I agree with this post whole-heartedly. As a matter of fact, I am shocked that you wrote it. While I tend to agree with you most of the time – or at least find common ground with you easily, one of the things we tended to disagree on was this very topic. I made a lot of noise here when Abell transferred. Just recently you were telling your readers not to get all uptight about these current transfers . . . etc. Now, the tone has changed.

    I tend to see how the specifics fit into a big picture so I was concerned about Abell at the time. And, I tend to see this program imploding before our eyes. This is the first time that I notice you hinting at something similar . . . IU being on the wrong path.

    Reply
    1. bertbeiswanger Post author

      Jeff, I think you’re confusing me with the boss, Kent Sterling. IU may indeed be on the right path. Time will tell. But the contrast with these two programs I follow closely is what is interesting to me personally- especially living in Indiana and getting that perspective. Florida is a model basketball program and is doing everything Indiana should be able to do and strive to be. Steve Alford just said he hopes to build a program at UCLA the way Donovan has at Florida. And FL deals with the same issues IU does. More than anything, it’s interesting how Florida as become a basketball barometer on the highest level.

      Reply
      1. Jeff Gregory

        OH, right you are! I didn’t realize that others wrote here under his banner. Missed the by-line. My apologies. Well, straighten the boss out!

        Reply
    2. kentsterling

      You have figured out that Bert wrote the post, so no need to explain that. The story I have heard about Abell leaving is that he became flippant and critical to Crean during a workout, and Crean had his transfer papers prepared and signed within an hour. If that’s true, good for Crean. If not, we still don’t know exactly what happened. Never understood Abell’s signing.

      Reply
      1. Jeff Gregory

        Well, let’s see . . . Flippant vs driving drunk. Yeah, between those two, Abell had to go. Maybe you will see why he was signed when you see his contribution to Xavier next year.

        If he flops at Xavier, then there is two players you think Crean blew scholarships on. Either way, it calls his management into question.

        Reply
        1. kentsterling

          Very true, but directly questioning the management of the program and Crean’s coaching acumen, if the story is accurate, resulted in the same outcome as it would in a workplace.

          I hope Abell does well at Xavier. We all make mistakes and the story of his redemption would be a good one.

          Reply
  3. Mike Jones

    Good article, and I agree with the point about Florida is currently elite, and currently IU desperately trying to defend elite status. Count me among those who are not concerned by the transfers though. This article, http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2014/3/26/5549544/transfers-and-the-big-ten-tom-creans-epidemic, makes a nice counterpoint to those raising alarm about transfer situation.

    Also, IU will always have elite, top tier potential above that of Florida, but remains to be seen if we have the right leadership to cash that potential in, or not. I’m willing to sit tight and see what happens in the next year or two before I really start to judge.

    Reply
    1. Jeff Gregory

      My problem isn’t so much there are transfers; it is the timing of the transfers. Crean was hired to bring the program back to respectability – not as an isolated one or two-year period, but as a fixture of respectability. In the years Crean has been here, he had two respectable years and now is back to sub-NIT level (with little promise of improvement for next year). This lends to Kent’s article.

      While these transfers may not be THAT big of a deal in a stable program, they are a big deal at IU now. Add these transfers to Vonleh’s bolting to the NBA (after making comments previously that he isn’t in a hurry to get to the NBA) and the big picture looks a lot bleaker than an isolated 1.7 transfer rate.

      Since Yogi is the only player on a VERY SMALL roster that has PROVEN value, now is the best time to rebuild with another coach, IMO. Had Vonleh stayed another year, I would be more inclined to give it another year.

      Reply
      1. Mike Jones

        Maybe we disagree about what the problem was this year. I think I boiled down to us having a whole team full of guys who can’t shoot. I don’t think the transfers this year, or from years past really affected that one way or another. Sure, some guys might have gotten better, but if we could have had Matt Roth and Jordy (elite outside shooters) back for one more year I think everyone would have looked better this year. Let’s see what some outside shooting makes us look like next year.

        Reply
        1. Jeff Gregory

          No, I agree with you, Mike. Outside shooting would have gotten us in a lot better position. But see, the fact that we didn’t have it is part of the BIG picture of program management. Just Remy Abell would have made a world of difference. That makes the transfer issue an integral part of the problem at IU. He will be the best or close to the best player on Xavier next year; mark my words.

          So, yes, next year they will have more shooters, but we will have no one inside – again bad management. Sure, he could could possibly find a JUCO transfer or two to come in and contribute, but should an elite program have to rely on that kind of luck? I don’t want to wait another year for what seems to have become more an more obvious already.

          Reply
          1. Mike Jones

            Now it seems like your stretching for reasons to complain Jeff. Remy Abell was never going to be a starting quality SG in the BIG 10, and if he’s the best player on Xavier’s team next year they won’t be going very far. Remy’s ceiling was probably a 6th man role as a senior, even if he considers himself NBA talent.

  4. John

    Indiana is clearly in a better position with the recent departures…Ethrington was a good shooter in high school , and will be again…but not in The Big…Hollowell had a bad attitude from the time he hit the Hoosier hardwood…and was more liability than asset. The incoming backcourt along with Yogi Ferrill has a good chance of being the best in the NCAA next year, and the tandem of Devin Davis, Troy Williams and Hanner Parea as forwards will also be hard to beat…The Hoosiers have 3 scholarships to find a big man. I’m betting they do. I’m also betting the Hoosiers finish ahead of Florida next season…What do you think Kent? Want to take that bet?

    Reply
    1. bertbeiswanger Post author

      John, btw, thanks for reading and the comments. My take: Florida will be coming off four straight trips to the Elite Eight (this year is still work in progress) and losing four senior starters. If IU isn’t better than Florida for a year…..
      BUT, Florida has two McDonald’s All-American Freshmen right now in Kasey Hill and Chris Walker, will return the best three point shooter in the country in Michael Frazier, has stud incoming freshman and…Billy Donovan. Yeah, I’ll take that bet. But this isn’t IU vs. FL, this is about the consistency IU should strive to attain and FL is as good a barometer as there is right now.

      Reply
    2. kentsterling

      I will take that bet. Florida has a culture of excellence in a very mediocre conference. Would Indiana finish ahead of Indiana in the Big Ten? Maybe not, but given the level of competition in the SEC, I’ll take Florida’s record being better than Indiana.

      Reply

Leave a Reply to kentsterling Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *